this post was submitted on 17 Dec 2025
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I'm just saying it doesn't seem like you need socialism to achieve better result in what we're discussing. You can do it within capitalism and as it stands some capitalist countries are doing even better than the best of socialist countries.
And funny to speak about China as some new civilization with little time to develop, especially compared to Finland for example. But it's whatever, if that feels like the answer to you then I'm fine with it. I just thought China was a poor example since rural people only got welfare in 2014 onward and whatnot.
I'm sure there's other, out of scope things where they're amazing.
If your safety nets are funded through underdeveloping the global south and stealing from it, and these same safety nets are eroding rather than strengthening, then it isn't a legitimate comparison in the slightest. You keep ignoring imperialism when I bring it up, and that's akin to saying that you can have a good quality of life in capitalism by being a capitalist.
The PRC was founded in the middle of the 20th century. Prior to its existence, China had been colonized by Britain and later Japan, and was kept as a semi-feudal backwater. The great states of China of the past had all but decayed into a shadow of their former selves through the century of humiliation. China did not truly begin its era of rapid development until it became socialist. The Nordics were beneficiaries of imperialism even prior to the founding of the PRC.
You've erased the scope and are trying to compare static snapshots rather than trajectories and systems. This erasure of context is the kind of vulgar materialism of pre-evolutionary biology that saw each animal as permanent and fixed, unchanging, rather than interrelated and constantly changing.
I mean we can't really talk about future without it being just speculation, so right now is furthest we can go with actual numbers. Like said, theoretically China will be the best at some point but until then...
Finland got their independence in 1917, before that it was a colony and under foreign and imperialist rule. Finland went through a civil war and WW2 too. I wouldn't call Finland old compared to the millennia spanning civilization that is China lol. Finns were sleeping in caves when China was already an empire conquering shit.
We can absolutely analyze historic trends to see where countries are heading, and to refuse to do so is again the same type of vulgar materialism that pre-evolutionary biologists were guilty of. History is not a series of static snapshots.
Finland in particular was largely agrarian in the beginning of the 20th century, but had become entrenched within the imperialist core by the time the PRC was founded, and was still more developed than China at the time of the PRC's founding.
I have no idea why you keep dodging the imperialism point and acting like it doesn't exist, that should disqualify a country from being included. If your cushier lifestyle is dependent on the immiseration of foreign countries then that isn't a meaningful way to tell if capitalism works as a better system. Further, safety nets in Finland and the Nordics in general are eroding as imperialism is faltering. China isn't imperialist, its gains come from its own working classes and not foreign plunder.
I mean you're free to speculate about the future. Economists do it all the time and I don't really trust that much, personally. Let's talk when that speculation is actually true and China does beat the Nordics imo.
You're taking a vulgar empiricist approach and denying the ongoing material processes and trends that point to decay in imperialist countries and the rise of socialist countries. If you only trust what you can directly see with your own eyes, then you deny evolution, geographical shifts, and other phenomena that require observation over an extended period. Again, you're also choosing to ignore imperialism, that's like saying capitalism works great because capitalists live great while ignoring the necessity of worker exploitation.
I'm sure your theory and methodology is fine. I just don't trust much in that sort of speculation tbh.
Are you denying evolution, geographical shifts, and the process of imperialism, or are just taking an agnostic stance while doubling down on ineffective methodology?
Like said, I'm sure it's a good theory and all. I'm just cautious about trusting that sort of predictions. They don't always pan out quite as predicted.
The fact that some predictions are wrong doesn't mean we can't analyze trends and trajectories, nor does it mean taking the opposite approach and focusing on static snapshots is better. Again, vulgar empricism denies evolution, geographic shifts, and imperialism. Are you denying evolution, geographical shifts, and the process of imperialism, or are just taking an agnostic stance while doubling down on ineffective methodology?
I didn't say you weren't allowed to do your predictions. I'm sure they're good predictions. I just don't put much faith in them.
Are you allergic to giving a clear answer? Being extremely vague about your claims and refusing to address points I've made isn't helping your case here.
You said according theories you believe in that socialist countries will be best of the best and so on. I'm not concerned about the future and don't really trust these sort of predictions, so what else can even say really. I wanted to be nice and agree that yeah maybe at some point.
I'm just not very interested in speculation, that's all
I said that socialist countries are better at providing for the working class now. This statement requires isolating variables and taking differences into account when making a comparison, not looking at static and arbitrary comparisons. Further, the decay in imperialist countries and the rise of socialist countries are already ongoing, not processes for the future. You've been explained this before and haven't responded to it, or justified why your arbitrary comparison is better than comparing peer countries and trajectories.
Same goes with not giving a clear answer on geographical shifts, evolution, and imperialism. Your static snapshot method is wrong.
I mean the best countries are still capitalist. So eh, once a socialist vountry take that top spot your argument will be stronger. But we're not there yet.
"Best" in what way? A tiny number of countries that fund their safety nets through plundering the global south doesn't mean capitalism is good at safety nets, it means capitalism forces plunder. You never engage with this point and it sounds like you're pro-imperialism.
Best in the way we've talked about the whole time... Least amount of people living paycheck to paycheck and since social safety nets count, the ones with best of those too. Nordics are top at that.
And it makes no difference to you if these safety nets are eroding, and depend entirely on depriving people in the global south of their own wealth and safety nets? By your logic billionaires have the best safety nets, so being a billionaire is the best system.
I think you know how I feel about speculation about the future. And being a billionaire would be a great system, though they seem to exist in both system we talked about, since there's billionaires in socialist countries and capitalist ones.
Maybe your theory about billionaires being the ultimate winner is on to something.
Billionaires cannot exist without the workers they plunder from, just like imperialist countries cannot exist without the countries they plunder from. Trying to isolate a subsection of the economy and erase those doing the work to prop it up is your error. The workers in the global south that prop up the Nordic systems are contained within that system, and as a consequence the actual working class is below China in terms of safety nets. China doesn't rely on this system, and as such is ahead.
I mean there's loads of billionaires in China.
Sure, but China is a socialist country that orients production towards common prosperity, and the billionaires aren't in control of the state. The billionaires in the Nordics exist at the expense of the global south, the billionaires in China exploit Chinese people. The major difference is that China takes care of their working classes, while the Nordics take care of their internal working class while forcing austerity on their external working class. Comparing the bottom in both systems, China surpasses the Nordics by a long shot.
I mean, this doesn't seem as much based on numbers than "well China has socialist rhetoric so less social safety nets is actually more so I win". I think better to just stick to the numbers tbh
Replying here because we reached the max comment depth.
If you cut the Nordics off of their imperialism, they would not be able to have these same safety nets. The people doing the bulk of the labor for the Nordic safety nets do not get access to them. China does run its safety nets from its own labor. You're taking a selectively blind approach that apologizes for imperialism.
I think the max comment limit was the hint that it might be time to stop hah. If you do this or that, eh. But situation is what it is right now and it was countries that we compared.
I don't think there's anything that interesting coming out of this tbh
It's not about "rhetoric," but the system itself. China has more social safety nets for those it depends on than the Nordics do. The Nordics just withold the safety nets for those inside the imperial core while depending on austerity abroad, while China is internally driven. Again, you're trying to remove those that the system depends on from consideration, equivalent to saying "being a billionaire is the best system." The Nordics are not a self-sufficient, closed loop, but instead part of the imperial core.
I mean yeah of course we are talking about people in the country that are actually eligible for the welfare and such.
You erased imperialism, continuity, motion, and history, in favor of steering the conversation towards imperialist countries somehow being a better system for enjoying their plunder.
I guess the hint to stop was a bit too subtle...