this post was submitted on 14 Dec 2025
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[–] markko@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

You demonstrate a good enough understanding of the history that you clearly know that you are being deceitful.

While some elements of Israel's establishment can be classified as settler colonialism, it's not accurate to say that all of it is.

Is there any colonised country that this doesn't apply to? Colonisation is a core principle of Zionism. It's so central to Zionism that it's in the introductory paragraph on it's Wikipedia page. Many of the early Zionist leaders said that their goals could only be achieved through the displacement of Arabs, and the migration of Jews was, and still is, strongly encouraged by Zionists.

For example, when Israel was established. The muslim world started committing pogroms in mass against their Jewish communities even though they had nothing to do with Israel.

Gosh, I wonder if that was in response to the treatment of Arabs in Palestine.

These people who been living in their communities for hundreds, and for some, thousands, of years were forced to abandon everything, including their citizenship, and flee to Israel because that's the only place that took them in.

And they had no problem pushing out the Arabs (who had been living in their communities for hundreds, and for some, thousands, of years) on their way in.

The total number of people from the exodus total around 1 million people. These people and their descendants now make up a very large chunk of the Israeli population, if not an outright majority.

Before they started settling in Palestine it used to be that less than 5% of the population were Jewish.

A majority of Australian colonists were sent there for committing petty crimes, such as theft. The industrial revolution left much of the working class without work, so theft in Britain rose rapidly. For the crime of trying to fees their family, over 100,000 people were forcibly transported to Australia. Their descendants now make up a very large chunk of the Australian population.

[–] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world -1 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

You demonstrate a good enough understanding of the history that you clearly know that you are being deceitful.

I'm not being deceitful. I just stated historical facts to bring necessary context to something that you're intentionally trying to oversimplify.

Is there any colonised country that this doesn’t apply to?

Actually it goes beyond that, it applies to all the modern states. The point I was trying to make is that you can't water down history to narrative driven soundbites.

Colonisation is a core principle of Zionism. It’s so central to Zionism that it’s in the introductory paragraph on it’s Wikipedia page.

Wikipedia is not a source for anything related to modern conflicts because it's prone to manipulation. This article in particular has been edited so much that it's literally unrecognizable from a few years ago.

Many of the early Zionist leaders said that their goals could only be achieved through the displacement of Arabs, and the migration of Jews was, and still is, strongly encouraged by Zionists.

And you would be correct, and this notion that pushes ethnic cleansing is wrong. However, there's nuance that can't be overlooked. For example, Israel is a secular, democratic country, and because of this, there are a lot of people with a lot of different views. The current government of Israel is very unpopular among Israelis, and the majority of people oppose it. The current government is considered far right and extremist by Israeli standards, and the most don't support their actions.

The far right factions, like Ben-Gvir's Otzma Yehudit and Smotrich's Religious Zionist party, are responsible for the vast majority of things people associate negatively with Israel. Here's a short list:

  • They are responsible for starting unprovoked aggression against their neighbors like Syria and Lebanon (excluding the Hezbollah conflict)
  • They keep sabotaging peace deals to keep the Gaza war going for as long possible
  • They go to extreme lengths to defend war crimes and war criminals
  • They're the ones are aggressively expanding and creating illegal settlements in the West Bank
  • They're the ones who encourage and defend discrimination and bigotry
  • They want to erase Israel's secular and democratic institutions so they can turn into a theocracy

They're horrible people. They follow a specific ideology called Kahanism, which is basically Jewish fascism. This ideology is so extreme that the US and Israel both designated the original founder of the ideology and his party as terrorists. The entire far right Kahanist coalition only got 10.84% of the vote in the 2022 election, and they only got 14/120 seats. A lot of their voters were the illegal settlers in the West Bank. By all accounts, these parasites shouldn't have sniffed any significant position in power, but Netanyahu, being the corrupt war criminal that he is, decided incorporate them into his wing so he could form a government with himself at the top. He also went the extra mile of giving them outsized positions of influence.

The point I'm trying to make here is that Israel is a diverse country and the people responsible for most of what's wrong with it are a small, corrupt minority that do not represent the general population. Just because the country started a certain way or has extremist politician today, that doesn't mean all 10 million people there are extremist as well. A lot of them don't support these things, and it would wrong to generalize any country in general.

Gosh, I wonder if that was in response to the treatment of Arabs in Palestine.

Are you seriously trying to defend these people getting ethnically cleansed because you think that this is somehow a justified reaction?

Just to refresh, these people who have no connection to Israel. These are people who have been living in their communities for centuries, for some it's literally thousands of years, and for no other reason than being Jewish they were expelled or chased out of their country and were forced to flee to Israel as refugees because they had nowhere else to go. These people lost their homes, their livelihoods, their property, their communities, and they're citizenship. They're just as much victims as the Palestinians you're trying to defend.

If you're going to sit here and wag your finger about the morality of Israel ethnically cleansing Palestinians and then turn around and justify the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the muslim world then you're nothing more than a hypocrite and your words mean nothing.

And they had no problem pushing out the Arabs (who had been living in their communities for hundreds, and for some, thousands, of years) on their way in.

Stop thinking like a Neanderthal. There's no "team" here. This mentality of tribalism is precisely the reason why this conflict is never ending. Instead think about it in terms of actions. There are actions that are morally good and actions that are morally bad. If an action is morally bad, like say ethnic cleansing, then you oppose it in all its forms and in all instances because that's the principled thing to do. When Israel ethnically cleansed Arabs during it's founding, that was bad. However, the muslim world ethnically cleansing Jews was also bad. Having moral consistency shouldn't be this difficult.

A majority of Australian colonists were sent there for committing petty crimes, such as theft. The industrial revolution left much of the working class without work, so theft in Britain rose rapidly. For the crime of trying to fees their family, over 100,000 people were forcibly transported to Australia. Their descendants now make up a very large chunk of the Australian population.

Okay, let's follow this logic. The original British settlers were colonial settlers sent by the British Empire to colonize Australia. The Aboriginal people there got the short end of the stick, and were ethnically cleansed from their lands. However, the Aborigines were not a monolith, there were many different nations and cultures and many them clashed. Australia prior to the arrival of European had a lot of wars, conflicts, discrimination, and disputes between different tribes (source).

Now, imagine some dingleberry today came along on the internet and started talking about how the Aboriginal people of Australia all peacefully coexisted for centuries, and the violence on the continent is a recent phenomenon brought by the British. How would you interpret this? The way I see it, this is just pure ignorance because both the premise and the conclusion are incorrect. The aboriginal people didn't all coexist peacefully, and the British didn't bring violence, they merely extending what was there. That's actually what the British were known for, divide and conquer. That's how they captured North America, South Africa, India, and so on. This strategy wouldn't even be possible if there was no tensions to exploit.

If we circle back to our topic, how does this same exact logic not apply here? The person that I replied had an incorrect premise and an incorrect conclusion based on that premise. I merely criticized it and provided context that proved otherwise. How does this make me deceitful? The answer is it doesn't.

[–] markko@lemmy.world 1 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

I wouldn't usually continue to engage, but you don't actually come across as a hasbarist. I do agree with quite a few of the things you've said, but the conclusions you seem to come to regarding modern Israel are, at the very least, confusing.

If you understand Zionism's history then you must understand that the modern state of Israel would not exist without Zionism. One of Zionism's core principles is colonisation^. Therefore, Israel is a settler-colonial state. The circumstances and motivations of the individual settlers are irrelevant when the outcome is the same. Knowing this yet still claiming that Israel is not a settler-colonial state is deceitful.

^Wikipedia is not an ideal source of information, but that particular page cites more than enough quality sources that clearly show this to be the case.

The views I have expressed are mostly directed specifically at the state, not every single individual. Anyone with any sense understands that no group of people consists of identical individuals. You have made a lot of assumptions about my views. Just because I can see why something happened does not mean that I agree with it.

These issues and events existed well before Netanyahu, and whether or not the citizens like him is largely irrelevant when polls repeatedly show that the vast majority approve of the general treatment of Palestinians.

While my comment about Australia was facetious, the intent was to point out that, regardless of the history, the treatment of the local populations in both situations is wrong, but in Australia amends are slowly being made. I don't think the comment you're referring to meant "peaceful coexistence" in the sense that there was absolutely no conflict (they did say "no major conflict"), but were more likely thinking along the lines of "peaceful enough to coexist", whereas that is not how I would describe the current situation at all.

[–] Gorilladrums@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago

Therefore, Israel is a settler-colonial state. The circumstances and motivations of the individual settlers are irrelevant when the outcome is the same. Knowing this yet still claiming that Israel is not a settler-colonial state is deceitful.

I think you're misunderstanding what I actually said. So let me be clear, what I'm saying is that Israel, like any other country, has a complex history that can't be oversimplified into a singular soundbite. What this means is that there is more nuance than any online narrative would have you believe. Like I said earlier, aspects of Israel's founding did in fact revolve around it being colonial settler state, that much is true and nobody is arguing otherwise. However, what I am arguing is that the country evolved to be more than just that with time, and I demonstrated this point by giving you the exodus of Jews from the muslim world as an example this.

The point is that countries aren't static, they continuously evolve and change. A lot of countries started out as colonial settler states, but ended up evolving into being something else. Turkey, Mexico, New Zealand, Brazil, Canada, the US, and so many others fall under this category. Israel is not an exception even if some of the founding elements are still present. For example, Turkey is still colonizing and ethnically cleansing groups of people, the US is still an imperialist in its policy, Brazil still has a culture that's entrenched in racism, and so on. However, all these countries have different national identities from when they started, and Israel is no exception.

Wikipedia is not an ideal source of information, but that particular page cites more than enough quality sources that clearly show this to be the case.

The reason why I'm dismissive of Wikipedia as a source for this discussion is because this same article from a few years ago also had a lot quality sources to justify it, yet it was changed drastically nonetheless. What this implies is that are active campaigns to manipulate information on there. Regardless, the precise definition of Zionism is irrelevant to this conversation, so I don't really have much of an interest in arguing about Wikipedia.

Anyone with any sense understands that no group of people consists of identical individuals. You have made a lot of assumptions about my views. Just because I can see why something happened does not mean that I agree with it.

I originally interpreted your previous comments as tribalistic as it seemed like you were trying to push for a team rather than just making observations. However, If this is what you genuinely believe, then we're on the same page.

These issues and events existed well before Netanyahu, and whether or not the citizens like him is largely irrelevant when polls repeatedly show that the vast majority approve of the general treatment of Palestinians.

I disagree, I think Netanyahu is single handedly responsible for making things way worse. He greatly weakened Israel's democracy, he worked hard to erode the country's institutions, he went out of his way to incorporate radical fascists into his government, he aggressively pursued conflicts as a way to escape his trails, and the list goes on and on. His very presence in government does Israel a disservice as he is an icon for corruption inside and outside the country. His exit from politics will do wonders for the country and the region.

It's like Turkey with Erdogan or Hungary with Orban. There are a lot of protests and opposition there as there is in Israel against Netanyahu. Polls show whatever depending on how the questions are worded and how the results are interpreted, however, the one metric that is reliably consistent is people's confidence in the government. If people have no faith in their government then they fundamentally are at odds for what it stands for and they seek drastic change. Looking at what this current government stands for, a drastic change from is exactly what this country needs.

Will most of the major issues be solved with Netanyahu going away? Probably not, however, if he is replaced by his opposition, then that means you'll have a more sensible government in charge, and that alone is a huge change because it means that diplomacy has a real chance. When you show people a more peaceful, more reasonable path, they will always gravitate towards it. Netanyahu leaving politics is the first step to deradicalize, not just Israel but the whole damn region.

I don’t think the comment you’re referring to meant “peaceful coexistence” in the sense that there was absolutely no conflict (they did say “no major conflict”), but were more likely thinking along the lines of “peaceful enough to coexist”, whereas that is not how I would describe the current situation at all.

I feel like our conversation has split into two distinct topics. There's the topic about the evolution of Israel and the original topic of whether or not peaceful coexistence was a thing before the creation of the modern states. For the latter, I'm arguing that there wasn't. The type of discrimination, oppression, violence, war, and ethnic cleansing that we're seeing today has existed long before Israel was a thing. Just because this region was under the boot of the Ottoman Empire for centuries, that doesn't mean that things were peachy there. Can you even point to a sustained period of peace in this region that is free from the things I listed? Because no matter how far back I look, things were always tense. It's not just between Jews and muslims, but also with Christians. The point is that the people who are saying that things were better back then are referring to a time that's either undefined or doesn't exist. It's like the conservative types who say they want to make America great again, but can never define what time they want to make America back to.